Air Gun Home :: View topic - Sighting in

dogugotw · Member

I'm shooting a Remington Vantage 1200 (first air gun) with the 4x32 scope that comes with the gun. I'm shooting a target at about 25 yards off of a sort of table (*). I seem to be having trouble keeping the spread inside 4" which sees way high.

I've seen numerous posts that say an air gun takes 250 - 1000 shots to settle in. I'm probably somewhere in the 200 shot range so one possibility is that the gun just isn't ready to shoot tight groups. Question - how much does aging of the gun matter? Does a gun go from a 4" shot spread to 1/4" spread or are we talking 4" to 2" kind of changes? Could I just have a bad gun? When/how do I make that call?

I've seen some product reviews that seem to indicate that the scope is crud (and others that say it's not, you gots to love da web...). How likely is it that the scope is moving around causing the problem? It seems firmly mounted but I'm guessing that small changes could make a big difference. Also, when cocking the gun I find that my arm has a tendency to wind up on the top of the scope. If the scope is firmly mounted, would/could/should this cause problems? I have not tried shooting open sight but may pull the scope and see what happens.

Now to me - I just took my .22 out and did some shooting at a target that was about 25 yards away and didn't have a well marked target center and managed to put 4 shots inside an inch. I was braced on a tree and pretty much guessing where the center of the target was. Having said that, shooting the pellet gun feels very different from the .22 with the long trigger pull and all so I may be adding to the inaccuracy, but I'm not thinking that I'm adding all that much.

I'm trying to learn how to troubleshoot so any tips on what is likely to be the major contributor to inaccuracy would be appreciated.

Doug

(*) I am using a 1x6 inch plank clamped to my porch rail with a leg on the back side. The whole rig isn't rock solid, but it's pretty rigid. I'm shooting off of a rolled up towel under the barrel; nothing on the back end of the gun. The meaty portion of my trigger hand (right) is sitting on the board. My sight picture seems to be telling me that as I squeeze the trigger, the meaty part of my hand bunches up and tends to push the barrel down and to the left just a bit (maybe 1/4 - 1/2 inch on the target) if I don't pay attention to what I'm doing. Still, 1/2" is not the kind of spread I'm seeing. I'd love to shoot my .22 of this rig, but I'm inside the 300' distance to my nearest neighbor and would hate to have John Law over for a visit...plus it would just be stupid...

dogugotw · Member

to help bring things into focus...
Took the scope off and shot at a target about 10 yards away and got sub 1 inch groupings.
Moved to 25 yards and was keeping most shots inside a 2" circle with an occasional flyer 3-4" off the group center.
Realized two things.
First, I'm wearing progressive lenses (did I mention I'm officially an 'Old F#$t'?) and it is durn hard to keep the target in focus without twisting my head in 30 directions. I switched to a single focus set of 'distance' glasses.
Second, I'm using home built targets (paper with a black + in the middle) and it's hard to really see the target even with the single vision lenses. I used some 1" painter's tape and marked out the + so it's clearly visible from 25 yards.
Suddenly, I can see the target and line it up with the sight.
Groupings are now pretty consistent within the 2" circle.

I think what I'm going to do is shoot with this setup for a few days, then put the scope back on and see what happens. Right now, it's looking like the scope is at least a contributor to the scatter. Why would that be? Is it the actual scope (optics re-align during shooting), the mount (feels tight but really isn't), or something else? Any pointers would be appreciated.

Doug

fritz · Silver Status Member

I think it is that you may not be able to properly handle the recoil of the spring piston airgun. The second thing would be your choice of ammo. More so your lack of abilities than the ammo (although I have been wrong before).

Try barely gripping the rifle. Just hold it enough to keep it steady, don't lock down on it and fight the recoil/shot cycle like you would with a powderburner. The lock time of a spring powered airgun is particularly slow with exception to truly magnum guns. Springers have a peculiar recoil/shot cycle to them compared to burners and precharged guns. This recoil first moves the gun forwards (from the spring expansion), then backwards from the end of the piston cycle (the remaining energy).

That means loosely gripping the gun allows it to recoil on its own, making it more tame. Secondly following through on your shot is a must because of the slow lock time. Third you may be shooting perfectly, and the ammo is just not right for the rifle.

I would first try changing myself as that is the least expensive method. Give that a tin of pellets and your groups should improve at least slightly (if at some point they stop improving, but accuracy is still not good enough switch pellets). What pellet are you currently using?

Later after maybe 2,000 shots you may want to give the rifle a tune, to attempt in making the shot cycle smoother, thus reducing shot-to-shot velocity spread, and all together resulting in a smoother, easier to shoot, more (mechanically) accurate, and often better sounding rifle.

dogugotw · Member

Fritz,

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. I especially like your description of the firing cycle; I had no clue the gun went both ways! I'll concentrate on keeping a loose grip on the gun and see what happens.

Right now, I'm burning through a '4 pack' of Gamo pellets; 250 of 4 different types - Match, Magnum, Hunter, and Master Point. I've been shooting mostly the Match but switched to Hunter today. I really should spend time with all 4 types and see if there is any noticeable difference.

If you can recommend an specific brand/type for this rifle, I'd be very open to your thoughts.

Thanks again for your reply.

Doug

fritz · Silver Status Member

I recommend that you go to those Magnums quickly. In my Diana 34 (.177) they shoot quite well, with one major exception. The ones I got about this time last year have 3 different sizes giving 3 different groups. 2 of the groups are quite good, but I don't have the tools to size or weigh them to root out the "bad ones".

Gamo match seem to shoot well in most guns.

Be careful with scopes on springers. Due to the double recoil you WILL eventually break a cheap non springer rated scope. Even $1000 centerfire scopes will be easily broken on a springer because they are not designed to take the recoil going both ways. Centerpoint supposedly tests their optics on magnum springers and high powered centerfires, my own 4-16x40 centerpoint has lasted over 10,000 shots combined from a Diana 34 and a Super Streak. It is also crystal clear out to 350 yards (longest distance I have), although high dollar optics would perform much better I imagine. The CP's go for about $50-$150. I recommend you go for a 3-9x32 duplex or x40+ with a mildot reticule. You do not need more than 10x for hunting and no more than 24x for high level target shooting.

Back to pellets: I would get a tin of RWS superdome, crosman premier pointed, (cheap) crosman hunting, HN match, and cheap Beeman pellets. I need to go right now, hopefully someone else can fill in anything I missed and voice their opinion.

dogugotw · Member

Thanks. I'll look around for the suggested pellets.

I'm glad you said what you did about different pellet sizes in the same can; I thought I was doing something wrong when I noticed that some pellets seemed to just slide into the barrel and others needed a bit of persuasion. That could be contributing to my scatter!

Also, the rifle came with a CenterPoint scope. The optics are OK but not great; there's a bit of fringing/distortion at the outer edge of the scope that's annoying but doesn't seem to affect the center point of the optics. Like I said, I'm going to shoot without a scope for a bit and see how it goes, then switch back once I'm comfortable that I understand how the gun without scope shoots.

Thanks again.

Doug

kanyon · Silver Status Member

The right pellet for yer gun is the biggest part...
JSB Exacts ...are a good starting point..
Gun hold ...eastest way...Hold the gun with out holding it.. Exclamation

By that I mean let it sit lightly in yer hands with out gripping
hard..that way the gun can/will move the same each shot..

If you site on a rest theres a good chance it will not be good
for unrested shooting "of the shoulder" and vice a versa..

Ps... JSB Exact's / BSA wolverines / Air Arms / FX / AOA FT..
Are all the same pellet..... made by JSB

Pete

dogugotw · Member

Kanyon,

'Hold the gun with out holding it'

How very Zen. Love it!

Thanks for the tip on bench sighting vs offhand. I wouldn't have expected there to be a difference so thanks for the info. I did a bit of offhand shooting after sighting in on the bench and my offhand shots were high and to the right. Now I know there's a reason. These are touchy little buggers.

I guess the good news is that, for me, this isn't going to matter a whole bunch. I bought the pellet gun so I could shoot a lot of lead without spending too much cash. My intent is to improve my shooting skills and transfer those to my .22 (bit more expensive) and my .270 (a lot more expensive) and then into a clean kill on a deer.

Knowing that the gun will shoot different groups depending on how I'm shooting (bench, braced on a tree, offhand) means I can focus on groupings rather than accuracy. My power guns seem to shoot the same once they're sighted in so once I quit worrying about hitting 'a' spot and start focusing on hitting 'the same spot every time' with the pellet gun, I should be able to do what I'm trying to do.

Thank you again for the reply, HUGE help.

fritz · Silver Status Member

A pellet gun is not an excuse to neglect your .270 and then expect it to perform during deer season. If you don't go out and practice with the gun it will never do what you need it to. Granted shooting the springer will help, it's not the same beast.

dogugotw · Member

Fritz,

Understood. As a relatively new gunner, it's my intent to be as proficient as possible and, at the same time, not put myself into the poor house buying .270 shells.

I subscribe to a Hunter-Shooter newsletter and the guy who runs it (Army marksman) feels that skills learned with small guns at short range translate as you go up in caliber but not really the other way around. I've made sure that all of my guns are about the same weight and size so things feel about the same with each.

I hunt in the woods of NH so a sub-50 yard shot is going to be more common than one of those 600 yard Hail Mary things you see on the hunting shows. I figure if I can keep my shots inside a 2" circle at 25 yards, I should be good hitting a deer cleanly at 50 yards.

So, the plan is to push lots of lead through the air gun, migrate to the .22 and put lots (but less) through it, then probably a box of 20 through the .270 to make sure the scope is dialed in, I'm used to the trigger (*), and I'm not flinching.

Then, go sit in the woods and try for a deer...

Thanks for the reply; good stuff all.

Doug

(*) I ran a few shots through the .22 yesterday and the trigger feel is SO different that I was able to be surprised on pretty much every shot...little squeeze, bang! So very different from the AG trigger where you squeeze and squeeze and squeeze some more before bang. (and GRT-III is on order).

fritz · Silver Status Member

I suggest you still save up some money for that .270 ammo. Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't own a burner... it's f__'n expensive! You will have to put a box downrange STANDING if you are going to be hunting close range.

IIRC you are using your airgun from the standing position, correct? 2" standing on a target should be well enough for deer. Personally I can't hit a paper standing, but put a can or such downrange and I can easily hit it. Once you know you are dialed in at X distance try getting some spinners, silhouettes, or other "reactive" targets. I am even more accurate in the field, when I have that slow-motion state of peace when you get a bee line right on a critter.

If you get a LOW friction bag, you might be able to try off a bench with a springer. Usually this means food-grade silicone lube on a nylon shooting bag (leather also works, but less durable in the weather). BR shooters often do this.

dogugotw · Member

I have been doing most of my shooting from a bench on a pile of rolled up towels with a bit of offhand shooting.

One of the nice things about shooting in the woods around here is that there are LOTS of trees so there's generally something to rest our gun on. I also carry a small unipod or tripod that I intend to use if no trees are handy.

I'm also playing around with something I saw as a 'quick tripod' for cameras. http://www.ehow.com/how_4832883_camera-tripod.html Kind of a handy sling.

I definitely intend to practice offhand with the .270 BUT I refuse to take a shot if I have ANY doubt of my ability to make a clean hit. If I don't feel confident to hit inside the magic 8" circle, the trigger won't be pulled. (and this presumes I'll actually SEE a deer this year...)

Thanks also for the suggestion for the spinner target.

Now off to look for some of those pellets that have been suggested.

fritz · Silver Status Member

IMO 8" is quite large for a good "kill zone". If you have a good support a man with an airgun can shoot a 1" kill zone, at 50 yards. But 8" is acceptable accuracy at 50 yards for deer. When these guys (who are allegedly experienced shooters...) on hunting shows can't hit a Stone Sheep at 300 yards is quite sad. Especially considering it was a large specimen, and he had high quality optics on his high powered centerfire... off the top of a ridge- giving him a near bench rest.

If your gun (of any kind) shoots 8" at 50 yards it is defective. No modern arm should be that inaccurate.

Hell, for the western world, 12" at 50 yards would probably be more than acceptable with a bow. I was watching the Nat Geo channel and these Mongolian? archers were shooting targets slightly larger than the large face of a brick at an amazing 300 yards. Please note that the archer I saw looked about 80 years old... he actually aimed the bow himself but had a younger warrior draw the bow. What does that tell you about "good enough".

Surprised noone else has said anything...

dogugotw · Member

Fritz,

I got the 8" number from any number of people, including the state hunter safety instructors. It refers not to the ability of the gun or the hunter to pump shots into a particular sized area, but rather to the fatal area on a deer - the heart/lung zone is about an 8" circle. If I can hit an 8" pie plate from <any> distance, I can humanely put a deer down.

My rifle (and I working together) can manage much better than an 8" spread (and if I/we can't we ain't goin' huntin').

Doug

Slavia · Moderator