Air Gun Home :: View topic - .22 cal. Destroyers, RWS SuperH-Points, .177 Crow Magnum

radar · Silver Status Member

Some time ago I tried Crossman Destroyer pellets in .177 caliber in a Remington branded B18/B19 springer. I found them accurate to about 20 yards in that rifle and somewhat less so at 33 yards (30 m) so I dropped them. Also because they did seem to expand well in soft clay, but at short range, the hollow ring around the center tip would mushroom back and then separate leaving the cone-shaped center section to over penetrate for my purposes.
Recently, these have been released in .22 caliber, and since I got some branded as Benjamin Discovery in a sample pack, I decided to try them a second time at the moderate velocity of a .22 cal. QB78. The sample pack is all 14.3 grain pellets.
This rifle has had an Archer power tune kit…you know the needle probe and bigger bore TP seal and shoots a pretty consistent 10.5 FPE muzzle. That’s right about 575 FPS muzzle with these pellets.

The 4 kinds or 100 each:

This stuff is what I use for ballistic gelatin substitute. A steel BB at nearly exactly 600 FPS penetrates it 3-3/4” (95 mm) or just a hair more. I measure depth from the front flat surface of the block of clay, not including any splash rim from impact, to the leading edge of the pellet or BB. I use a probe to find the back, and then add the measured length of the recovered projectile. The dough is similar to Play-Doh and is water based. I did not cover the dough with anything. Real ballistic gelatin is calibrated with a steel BB at 590 FPS and is supposed to penetrate between 3-1/4” to 3-3/4” (83mm to 95mm) so this stuff should be fairly close enough as far as density and resistance:

Sorry I didn’t take pictures of the shot dough this time, but I will on range tests. Shot at 5 feet from the muzzle, the Destroyer type penetrated to a depth of 3-11/16” (94mm) and mushroomed to 5/16” (8mm) diameter. The hole was large and relatively shallow. I was pleased it held together and didn’t over penetrate.

By way of comparison, the domed hollowpoint and the pointed pellets both penetrated to a depth of 6-1/8” (156mm) and were only slightly deformed endwise with no measurable expansion. I did not try the domed, non-hollowpoint, as it should be the same as the others that didn’t expand.

Another picture of the Destroyer type:

So this might be a good rabbit and squirrel or pest bird pellet if it holds accuracy and can expand at range when shot at this starting velocity. I’m going to try at 20 and 30 yards next for both.

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

radar · Silver Status Member

Same rifle, same pellets, same clay. The Destroyer was chronied at 522.0 FPS at 19 yards—1 yard in front of my 20 yd target stand and Chairgun was used to estimate the BC at 0.0215. That’s seems a little high to me because of its blunt nose…but OK, whatever. That would put the 30 yd velocity at about 480 fps.
The accuracy at 20 yards was so-so at 1” groups but there was a gusty cross wind. I tried to shoot during lulls in the stiff wind. 30 yards was all over the map at about 2” to 2-1/2” size grouping. I don’t think it was all the wind because they seemed to curve off in the scope view and I was trying to fire during calms seconds; inconclusive, but not impressive so far.
Shooting the Superdough clay—and trying to keep it from getting too cold and stiff by bringing it inside to warm up between shots—was first at 20 yds, just shooting the bare-faced block of clay. There was a pretty good size entry hole and good splash around the rim of the hole. The pellet expanded to 5/16” (8mm) again…same as at point blank range but the outer edge was not bent back as far.
The first 2 pictures from 20 yard shot—the depth of penetration was 2-13/16” (71mm) and the expansion was, again, 5/16” (8mm):

These next 2 are from the 30 yard shot at the bare-faced clay block—the depth of penetration was 3-5/8” (92mm) and the pellet expanded to 0.240”.

Next 2 pics from to 30 yard shot with the clay block covered with a single layer of tee shirt cloth—the depth of penetration was again 3-5/8” (92mm) but the pellet only expanded to 0.226”…Barely deformed. The cloth (hide simulation) though thin, is stretchy and tough, and it appears that it caused enough power loss to prevent any meaningful expansion when it passed through the clay…so it ended up penetrating the same as bare clay, but made a smaller hole.

The lineup of the shot pellets compared to a new one:

My impression of the .22 cal. Destroyer at this point, is that at moderate velocity, it could be a very good game stopper at ranges out to 20-25 yards with good expansion and relatively little over penetration. I think the accuracy is questionable at 30 yards or more—at least on a windy day—and at least with my rifle. This same rifle groups about 1” at 33 yard with its best pellets, JSB, 14.3 grain domed, on a calm day. These were flying up to as far as 2-1/2” center to center for me today.

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

radar · Silver Status Member

RWS Super H-Points, 14.2 grain, .22 cal baseline Chrony today at 580.5 FPS at 3 feet from the muzzle.
I decided to skip the point blank shot into the clay because it’s only a curiosity unless a rabid bunny is climbing your leg.
I went right to 25 yards with the clay covered with the semi-elastic fabric. The depth of penetration was 4-1/8” (105mm) and the front of the pellet was flattened, but there was no measurable increase of diameter. The fabric covered block was flipped over and shot twice at 20 yards. The first shot was kind of close to the edge so another was fired closer to center. The depths of penetration were 4-1/16” and 3-1/4” for an average of 3.66” (93mm). The noses were flattened slightly more than the 25 yard shot, but there was still no measurable diameter change.
Setting up the target board at 33 yards (30m) gave a 5 shot group of about 1-1/4” (32mm) center to center.
It appear that this pellet needs a bit more speed to really open up, but with the flat nose that gets flatter on impact, it should still be a pretty good game stopper in .22 cal. It looks to me that these depths would probably run through the chest of a rabbit sized critter at these ranges and probably stop under the hide at the far side.
The SHP gets my vote for accuracy, but for close range shooting at moderate .22 velocities, where you really want the big expansion, the Crosman Destroyer might be the better bet.
Cheers
Rob

Target:

Covered clay:

Shot clay, 25 yards:

Pellets:

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

robert w · Senior Member

very interesting

Slavia · Moderator

Good stuff. On one hand it looks like it's a little tough to cut it cleanly to expose the entry channel. On the other hand it's reusable, unlike soap and gelatin.

radar · Silver Status Member

Yeah if it were transparent that would be ideal. It does tend to change the shape of the channel when cutting it open. Maybe I need a sharper knife or more patience. Very Happy

If this product were unavailable, I would try Play-Doh. It seems to be similar in density but I have yet to try it. I guess it could be thinned or thickened a little by partial drying or mixing in a little water.

Today I receive my .22 cal Skenko Ultra Shock HP from Pyramyd. I didn't take pictures because I was short on time, but what happened was...

Mass: I weighed 5 random pellets at once and divided by 5 and found the weight to be 16.74 grains, average. They are marked as 16.66 gr. There could be variation in a heavy one that made that happen, but I didn't weight them all.

Velocities: In the QB78 with a fresh CO2 charge at 65F-- got 576.1 f/s average 3 feet from muzzle (low 574.6, high 577.5) and 12.3 fpe, average.

In the Benji 392-- 8 pumps (the maximum stated by the manufacturer), 65F ambient, 590.5 f/s (low 587.1, high 593.1) and 13.0 fpe average.

10 pumps not recommended, but I tried it and got 631.8 f/s (low 627.8, high 634.0) and 14.8 fpe average.

Chrony from the QB78 at a measured 20 yards = 479.3 f/s and 8.5 fpe average.

I only shot the clay covered with the cloth today at 3 feet from the muzzle to see if there was any chance of expansion from this gun at hunting ranges, because the lead alloy seemed harder, like Crosman Premiers.
The depth of penetration into the clay after the fabric covering was 4-7/8" to 5-1/4" (124mm - 133mm). There was no expansion and very little deformation, despite the large and deep hollowpoints. I did no further testing after that. I may try in the Disco at much higher initial velocity and see if there is expansion probability at hunting range. I was a little disappointed they were so hard, but I found out the pellet weight that the QB can get max power. I have never measured more than 11 fpe out of it before.

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

cheers
Rob

radar · Silver Status Member

Just a few notes on some .177 cal. Beeman/H+N Crow Magnums I picked up today. They were accurate in this rifle but I didn't measure any groups for comparison.

Rifle, Remington Vantage 1200, stock-no mods…common Chinese B18/B19 pattern with a Leapers 4x scope.

Chrony F1, 3 feet from the muzzle:
Shot 1: 834.5 f/s
Shot 2: 857.0 f/s
Shot 3: 858.5 f/s
Shot 4: 836.7 f/s
Shot 5: 852.0 f/s
Avg. velocity 847.75 f/s
Ave. energy 14.05 ft-lb

Depth of penetration cloth covered Superdough at 20 yards:
Shot 1: 2-3/4” (70mm)
Shot 2: 2-5/8” (67mm)
Shot 3: too close to edge to measure.

All three expanded to .250”-.260” nearly perfect mushrooms.

I will be a hunting with these!

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

Rob

toadmyster223 · Senior Member

Very cool! I shot those same pellets into phonebooks, and they were much more badly damaged. Your test looks like a better representation than mine.

radar · Silver Status Member

Thanks!

Yeah phone books are really a lot harder than average animal tissue, even wet. Very dense. Water soaked stack of paper napkins, slightly (maybe 20% ?) compressed down seems to work very well too. They are porous and do not compact down so hard like newspaper or phone book paper.
I usually cover them then with a single layer of denim from some old jeans, or a thin pigskin welding glove for "animal hide."

I wish these Crow Magnums were as accurate in my rifle as some of the others, but they are OK. Not bad, but not nearly as precise as, say, H+N Barracuda Match domed nose pellets.

Still, it's good to have an expanding short range pellet for small stuff not over 20-25 yards in the arsenal.
cheers

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

Rob

toadmyster223 · Senior Member

Yeah, I guess my Titan shoots a considerable bit harder than that gun too, might also explain the violent results I got. That is some beautiful work at that energy though. It shoots crow and similar grizzly mag hollowpoints pretty accurately, destroyers tend to shot about a 4 inch group though. Too light for the speed I guess.

radar · Silver Status Member

Oh ya the Titan is much more powerful than the QB78 in my current tune.
I'm like 10.5 fpe at the muzzle...11 tops with some pellets on a warm day.

That's kind of why I chose it for the testing. Looking for a pellet that will expand at pretty low speed or the .22 cal '78.
Bunnies aren't too tough or wide and I like to see the pellet stop, usually. ...At least for in-town shootin'.

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

toadmyster223 · Senior Member

Maybe you should give these ones a try:

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/H_N_Field_Target_22_Cal_16_36_Grains_Domed_200ct/743

They're the most accurate I found for my gun, but probably aren't too heavy for yours. They have a pretty unique nose shape, and slowed down a lot on target out of the Tit. (lol)

radar · Silver Status Member

Thanks! I'll try some next time I put a pellet order together.
The only decent pellets I can buy loacally are Premiers and a few RWS types so I always order a few tins every few months.

I've heard good things about Polymags, so I got some of those on the way right now. I was skeptical of the polymer tip, but most folks seem to say they shoot straight...Just 1 tin to try out for now.

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

robert w · Senior Member

thank you for doin the footwork on those pellets . destroiers look good in 22

radar · Silver Status Member

Thanks...
In my experience, for ranges not much exceeding that which you would try to shoot a wadcutter pellet accurately, they do seem to expand well at relatively low velocity...same with the Crow Magnums.

It does seem that the pretty flat noses holds back stability at greater than about 25 yards, but for short range woods hunting, where you want less chance of over penetration and a good slam on small game, I think either of these are a good bet.

I'll certainly use them, but I won't give up my domed pellets for longer shooting distances or larger species of small game or pests where maximum penetration and accuracy will be needed--and if safety permits it.

These are just my results with my guns. Pellet penetration and/or expansion will be different with every target strike, pellet, range, and gun.

cheers
Rob