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Air Gun Home Forum Index » Antique, Collector and Novelty Airguns » 22 pellet percussion revolvers? Goto page 1, 2  Next
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22 pellet percussion revolvers? 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:33 pm Reply with quote
jlwilliams
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Not truly an airgun question, but they are 'pellet guns', so I thought I'd bring it up here.

Years ago there were revolvers that used musket caps to propell 22 cal pellets. They were advertised in magazines through the 50's 60's and into the 70's. I've seen them in old copies of Popular Mechanics.

Does anybody have one of these? Maybe seen one? They must be out there somewhere, but I've never seen one in person or seen one advertised for sale.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:38 pm Reply with quote
Slavia
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Mendoza of Mexico still makes them. All the PK series pistols in their airgun lineup are "de salva" (primer powered):
http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/deportivas.php

They make "Salva con munición" ammunition (primer with lead BB's):
http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/detallesProd.php?IDprod=64

They also make "salva con diábolo" ammunition (primer with diabolo pellet):
http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/detallesProd.php?IDprod=63

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:15 am Reply with quote
jlwilliams
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That's awesome! I wish they had more details, and that I could read Spanish. I can get the drift of what little they say, but I'm not exactly fluent. A few more pictures on their sight would be good. I may not read Spanish words too well, but I do understand Spanish pictures Laughing .

Any examples of the old ones kicking around?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:23 am Reply with quote
Slavia
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You could search places like Gunbroker.com. One keyword would be "zimmersteutzen" - they were popular in the late 1890's.
http://www.pyramydair.com/zimmerstutzen.shtml

Another keyword would be "Flobert." Flobert cartridges are also a primer and ball in one unit (ammunition is still available).

You can get ammunition for .22's that is loaded with only the primer (and a lighter bullet). Look for "CB cap," or Aguila of Mexico's "Colibri" (pistol) and "Super Colibri" (rifle).

Another strategy would be to find a Mexican sweetheart like Broommaster did. She could then help you join the Mexican forum www.mexicoarmado.com, which has a subforum in with the airguns called "salva y municion."

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:20 pm Reply with quote
donec
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Not a revolver but...
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Davide-Pedersoli-Derringer-Guardian-Pistol/740897.uts?Ntk=Product_liberal&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D%26Ntk%3DProduct_liberal%26Ntt%3Dprimer%2Bpowered%2Bpistols%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3D%26WTz_stype%3DSP%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26recordsPerPage%3D80%26search%3Dprimer%2Bpowered%2Bpistols%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=primer+powered+pistols&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:50 pm Reply with quote
broommaster2000
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Flobert seems to be popular in Belgium... Neutral

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Zimmerstutzens are a bit pricier than those pistols 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:15 am Reply with quote
RedFeather
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Passed on a fairly decent Zimmer (although the stock was chipped/dinged up) on Gun Broker last week. Believe it went for about $450, owing to condition. A fine one will command considerably more. Anyway, even though these and the Floberts shoot small balls, I would consider them firearms since they use percussion caps or a primer compound as the propellant. There are air gun equivalents from the same time period which use springs.

One thing to be aware. Some of the Mexican guns use .22 rimfire blanks. Guess these are the same as for modern nail guns. A lot of these blanks use black powder and are corrosive, so immediate cleaning is a must. Pedersoli has an abortion (sold by Cabelas) which uses a shotgun primer. It's ugly and way over-priced. From what I have heard, none of these systems are accurate. And you would have a hard time convincing a police officer they are an air gun if they take a cartridge.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:19 pm Reply with quote
jlwilliams
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I'm considering making a set of adapters for a cap and ball revolver. I'll have to put my hands (and calipers) on one to evaluate the possability. I'll keep you posted.
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Here's what you might find 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:31 pm Reply with quote
RedFeather
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Most all of them take standard percussion caps. If you are looking to move anything at appreciable speeds, you might have to re-tap the cylinder for musket caps. There are also nipples made to convert single shot rifles from standard to musket caps, but you will have to see what size/thread the revolver's nipples are first. Next, you will need to sleeve the cylinder as these are usually .44 and .36. At that point, you should be able to seat your pellets or round balls and shoot them through the barrel. Be aware that they won't engage the rifling since the bore is over-sized. You would have to sleeve it and incorporate a forcing cone to align the pellet with the bore, something that happens in all revolvers due to the cylinder gap the bullet must "jump". I don't think you will have anything like the energy required to do this with only a cap for propulsion. Those early guns you mentioned were probably all over-sized smooth bores.

You could try sleeving a single-shot pistol. That would allow you to use the converter nipple for musket caps. Be sure be sure to follow instructions and recommendations! I won't go into converting anything into a hand-built job as that can get complicated. If you do convert anything, be sure to prominently mark it as for caps and pellets, only!!! You don't want someone mistaking it for a black powder gun since alterations will compromise the integrity, plus it will keep people from mistakenly using smokeless powder. A little bit of that goes a very long way and will result in serious injury or death, as they say.

Maybe run your ideas by us here before investing, etc? Good luck!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:26 am Reply with quote
jlwilliams
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Those are all good considerations, RedFeather. Thanks for bringing them up.

I have done a little research on this and have put out a couple calls to friends about borrowing some cap and ball guns to look at to establish the feasability of going forward with a conversion. I've also been looking at work that was done during the era when percussion guns were converted to cartridge. Not the same conversion, but it's helpful to understand the work that went before in order to get a grip on how I might proceed.

The issue of jumping the gap from the cylinder to the forcing cone has occured to me. That may be a problem but I won't know untill I dig further into it. Hotter than average caps will probably come into play. I suspect you may be right about the old versions being smooth overbores. I'm leaning toward a shallow rifled brass barrel liner to keep bore resistance to a low roar. Again, I'll know more when I dig into it.

A single shot is a good place to start with establishing a base line. They are also cheap, which helps.

This is kind of a back burner project because I'm in the middle of some real work. Real work has a way of intruding on hobby time. The up side is that I build prototypes for a living, so there is some cross over. It's not a huge leap for me to dabble in airgunsmithing or gunsmithing. I'm no expert at either of those, but tools and metals are tools and metals. It all boils down to identifying then solving problems. Even big puzzles come together a piece at a time.

I should have a revolver and a single shot to look at within the week. For the time being I won't be doing much more than fiddling with them and making a couple of sketches. Any progress will be posted here first.
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On the hot caps 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:10 pm Reply with quote
RedFeather
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Just re-read my post and you might not be able to use the musket caps in a revolver. They are pretty fat. Whatever you use, wear eye protection and a shooting glove. Cap fragments can hurt! BTW, you might want to search under "mouse guns". Some curious folks have actually built .22 black powder guns, LOL!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:30 pm Reply with quote
jlwilliams
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Mouse guns? Sounds like a fun search.

The only 22 cap and ball guns I've seen are the modern Freedom Arms and NAA ones. I presumed there were historical precedents but had not really looked hard for them.

I think that may be the starting point for this evenings google track.

Unfortunately, the internet doesn't have everything (contrary to popular opinion). I'll get what I can but at some point I'll need to dig hard for some off the beaten track, out of print books. That, and talk to some hard core collectors. I must seek the wizdom of the geezers. One thing about old guys, they've been around a long time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:46 pm Reply with quote
w4bar
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In 1951 a friend conned his grandmother into waisting 3 or 4 dollars to get him what I think you saw advertised. It turned out to be a cap gun, with a BB size steel tube in the barrel. The cap provided enough power to get the BB out of the barrel, but that was about it.

Creative advertising, at its best.

Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:48 am Reply with quote
w4bar
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Then I got to thinking about it. This is more along the lines of what I was thinking of. Except my pal's was a revolver cap gun.
()

The add was in a 1954 True magazine. A really great magazine, by the way.

Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:47 am Reply with quote
jlwilliams
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I've seen a few old copies of True. It was a cool magazine.
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22 pellet percussion revolvers? 
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